Anger is never to be the motivation in correcting our
children but the Bible certainly endorses corporal punishment. It's critical
when they are young. If you lay the foundations of authority and respect you
won't need to do it past maybe five or six years of age....
Is it possible to
raise children properly without ever laying a hand on them? I suppose it's
possible but not likely. They may make it to adulthood but we're not glorifying
God by raising disobedient bratty children. Obedient respectful children speak
volumes to the world and more importantly you set their hearts on a right
path...
Love for what is
right and for our children must be our motivation. We can easily fall into the
trap of wanting our children to like us, or not wanting to ever feel bad about
our responsibilities. But this is selfishness not love or duty. Ironically it
is when we set boundaries and demonstrate authority and interaction that our
children know that we love them and care about them. It's a fine line.
Discipline in anger is selfish and horrible. Done properly, chastening
demonstrates love.
In some circles there are those which make a big deal about
using an implement and will even pontificate as to what type of tool to use
etc... I don't agree with their interpretation or attitude. The Scriptures are
teaching a principle and while it is unpopular today there is still a great
deal of wisdom in it. The use of 'rods', wooden spoons or something else, is
for each family to decide.
The enemies of Christ accuse the Scriptures of teaching
child abuse, genocide, misogyny and much else. These charges are false but
sadly because some have abused and exploited the Scriptures many are confused
and we have to spend a great deal of time carefully explaining what the
Scriptures actually teach... without backing down.
That's great, except this is about the 5th time over the years that you've invited me to follow your blog. I appreciate much about the Church of Christ, but it's also in error on several points. You definitely do a good job in building up a huge following. I used to go on your site and debate with people and there's certainly a full spectrum there. If memory is serving me right I don't recall we always saw eye to eye.
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by...
In my younger years I was fairly outspoken about the necessity of inflicting corporal punishment in order to discipline children and would point to passages such as Proverbs 13:24 to back up my point. Now I'm not so sure.
ReplyDeleteThe "rod" spoken of in that passage doesn't necessarily entail the use of a beating stick. It could actually be talking about the "rod" associated with authority in general, and that without exemplary leadership in the home the child will grow up without any bearing on how to conduct him/herself responsibly. It's as if they'll lack a certain "center of gravity".
I'm also skeptical about the possibility of inflicting violence on another person in a "calm, loving" manner. To have the desired effect one HAS to be angry and there has to have been some loss of self-control. In almost every case involving the hitting of a child (of which I've heard, anyway), the parent has done so in a state of uncontrolled rage and in some cases has even taken pleasure from it. Concerning the latter, it's often those who work in uninteresting jobs and have to deal with abusive bosses during the day. You also have to consider that resorting to corporal punishment as a form of discipline may have the unintended consequence of teaching the child that violence is an acceptable and ultimately necessary way to get what he/she wants. There is also the factor of diminishing returns - the child will eventually become desensitized to the whole process.
All of this is to say that the issue of discipline in raising children may not be as simple as some Christians think. There's a lot to consider.
Cheers,
Jim
Good comments.
ReplyDeleteLike I said I agree that the 'rod' isn't necessarily an implement. As far as the corporal punishment, I don't want to bind the conscience either way. I don't like laws that restrict it and again I say that as one who got the bad end of it. What prompted me to leave the comment is that anti-spanking was being promoted as Christian. I'm not sure how helpful that is either.
I guess for me it would be a matter of what does that Scripture actually say?
Spanking can be done without anger, but it's not easy. You have to make sure you're calm and are conscious of what you're doing. My dad sure wasn't! Yikes.
In our case our children understood the authority at an early age and long ago the issue went away in our house.
Well, part of it I guess will also depend on what is acceptable behaviour. We were always the wierd ones taking our 2,3 and 4 year olds into coffee shops (3-4 kids at a time) with us, seeing the panic on people's faces and then kind of relief...and then interest when they realized our kids could sit quietly and behave. We just don't see that too much, and in fact many parents we know get kind of wild eyed at the thought of it. We know parents that don't even take their kids grocery shopping. Too much trouble. That's wrong.
But... everyone has their own ideas and I sure know better than to intervene or offer unsolicited advice.
I definitely would have been more hard line about it all when I was a young parent. Today it's different. Before the year is out I'll have three teenagers. We're in a different season now and I look back it all with a little more reflection.
If anything I was probably guilty of being a little too rigid and systematic in the early days. We never got into any of the parenting guru groups like the Ezzos if you've ever heard of them. We never liked them but some of our friends sure did. We were never as systematized or formulaic. We saw the error in that right away. Each child is different and has different issues. Event X might occur. For one child it might not be a big deal and for the other because of a recurring issue or attitude it might be a big deal.
You definitely get a little 'softer' as you get older. Already feeling that.
I could be wrong about this but I think the Bible is unclear about prescribing particular forms of discipline concerning the raising of children. Having said that, it is highly likely that at the time the Bible was written, corporal punishment (not taken to extremities) was the norm.
ReplyDeleteIt was also a far less economically developed civilization than ours and living conditions for the average person would have been akin to third-world poverty today. Children in those days had to grow up fast and learn to help out on the farm. Any shortcoming in parental discipline would have been compensated by the callous indifference of nature. Therefore, disciplinary issues were probably not as pervasive as they are today.
In saying all of this, I should acknowledge that I am not married myself nor do I have any children. My lack of experience thus makes my opinion on this issue ineffectual at best.
Cheers, Jim
Just saw this video. Something I never considered in this discussion.
ReplyDeletettp://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/school-ditches-rules-and-loses-bullies-5807957
Good point regarding what portions of OT carry over.... does that include the particulars regarding child discipline?
ReplyDeleteEnjoyed the video. That reminds me of what it was like in school. I don't know what Bullrush is but we had...ahem, 'Smear the Queer' which looks pretty similar.
Watching that video is like watching our kids play. We're all for letting them get wild and we've got the outdoors to go with it. Yup, they get hurt sometimes but most of the time it's not a big deal.
There's a time to play and be wild and a time to sit still.
Question... how would you tie in what they're saying to what we're talking about? I'm not sure I'm making the connection.
NZ? Aren't you in Canada?
ReplyDeleteYeah I'm in Canada, I just caught that clip at random.
ReplyDeleteIts pertinence to our discussion ties in to what I said about nature compensating for any parental shortcomings in ancient near Eastern child-rearing (encompassing both the OT and NT eras).
Basically, the video endorses the viewpoint that children should be free to be children. By implication, it also critiques the phenomenon of "helicopter parenting" today, which creates an ironic dynamic. Children are discouraged from "making their own fun" with the possibility of getting hurt but in the process their lives are becoming increasingly regimented. I've seen this in Canada with phenomena such as all-day kindergarten, shorter recesses, higher quantities of homework in earlier grades, mandatory volunteer work in high school, etc. - and this doesn't necessarily create morally upright, civic-minded citizens. In fact it engenders the opposite: self-absorbed, opportunistic, self-righteous sycophants obsessed with social mobility and walking over the little guy if necessary to attain their goals.
This kind of regimentation is bad enough but coupled with ineffective disciplinary techniques, it ensures that the child will age physically but not psychologically. They will be ill-equipped to function independently as adults in a complex and indifferent society.
Cheers,
Jim
Ah, I'm with you on that. The helicopter parenting is definitely out of control.
DeleteI've seen disciplinary varieties but usually (and I'm thinking of people we know quite well) it manifests itself in the parents constantly make excuses for everything the kid does and there's little to no punishment.
Others I'm thinking of maintain such control, such a tether that the kids never really had a chance to be 'bad'.
It's interesting how 'texting' and other technology has facilitated this continuing into the 20's... I was going to say adulthood but the 20-something's I'm thinking of are not adults.
When my wife was in college, she was the odd one. She actually talked to her parents every few days. A lot of kids went a week or two with no contact. If you had problems with schedules etc... you had to work them out. That was part of being a young adult.
Now, the parents are involved all day long. Constant contact between every class and activity.
It creates exactly the kind of people you mention.
So... there's discipline and regimentation but then there's the whole helicoptering thing. The latter is destructive.
Even as abusive and cruel as my own father could be and in many ways controlling... even he wasn't as bad as they modern helicopter type parents. I was venturing out at 18. I was making long road trips, traveling around Europe in my early 20's etc....
Frankly I can't imagine a lot of college age kids doing that today... just going out and having to figure things out etc... learning to be polite in different contexts, problem solving etc...
It never occurred to me that you might think what I was saying was somehow an argument for helicopter parenting... and maybe you weren't. But no, no, I'm totally with you on that. That is the wrong approach.
I appreciate you putting that on the table. It's helpful to clarify these things.